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Return of the 442?
Topic Started: Aug 22 2013, 04:43 AM (7,432 Views)
Posted Image ChrissyG11
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I'm not talking about where you'd put them on a teamsheet; I'm asking you to explain why the roles of Nani/Valencia/Young were any different to the roles of Giggs/Beckham/Kanchelskis etc.
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ZeeZoo
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DaG
Aug 22 2013, 02:45 PM
United have never played a '442' according to SAF. I'll still call it a 442, it's just easier and makes more sense to me.
Like I said, we played a straight 442 prior to Cole/Yorke/Sheringham/Solskjaer's departure.

It's alright mate, you tried to create a "smart" thread about tactics before realising you're actually chatting shit. One team plays a 4231, the other will play a different formation, none of the NTs play 442 and PSG are playing 442 because their board demands of it to ensure their marquee signing plays to increase brand exposure as opposed to it making tactical sense.





































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ZeeZoo
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ChrissyG11
Aug 22 2013, 02:48 PM
I'm not talking about where you'd put them on a teamsheet; I'm asking you to explain why the roles of Nani/Valencia/Young were any different to the roles of Giggs/Beckham/Kanchelskis etc.
Valencia is more 442 for sure, Nani & co. and it's to do with general positioning, where they collect the ball, defensive duties and offensive duties.

Beckham/Giggs sat deeper than Nani/Young now that's due to various reasons ie. the bigger tactical picture, defending abilities, stamina/strength, "flair", shooting abilities/effectiveness of cutting inside etc.

It's difficult to pin down because Valencia is more of a traditional wide man and Hargreaves played RM for us for quite a long while and was most definitely not a RW.

Formations are extremely fluid at the highest level of football hence why this thread is shit.
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ZeeZoo
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DaG
Aug 22 2013, 02:48 PM
Also, let's not forget that in the OP I said 'variations'.
Yeah, and I fucking said they're different formations. That's like saying 4222 is a variation of 442 thus can be bandied together, it most certainly isn't and it's an incredibly simplistic way of looking at it.

I'll say it again, 4411 is actually relevant to modern football whilst 442 isn't. Group 'em together and you're 'tarded.
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DaG
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ZeeZoo
Aug 22 2013, 03:00 PM
it most certainly isn't and it's an incredibly simplistic way of looking at it.

Umm, yeah, it is. Only difference is the positioning (and characteristics) of the wide players as interiors in the attacking phase. Defensively, it's the same as a 442 or 4411, depending on the pressing philosophy of the manager.
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Alfie
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ZeeZoo
Aug 22 2013, 02:51 PM

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:laughcry: :laughcry:
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ZeeZoo
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DaG
Aug 22 2013, 03:02 PM
ZeeZoo
Aug 22 2013, 03:00 PM
it most certainly isn't and it's an incredibly simplistic way of looking at it.

Umm, yeah, it is. Only difference is the positioning (and characteristics) of the wide players as interiors in the attacking phase. Defensively, it's the same as a 442 or 4411, depending on the pressing philosophy of the manager.
Why are you talking about the wide men when the main difference is up top?

"Simple stuff, man".
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DaG
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No difference 'up top' between a 442 with wingers or a 442 (4222) with interiors. You always have one striker in 'depth' and another playing in spaces below. Really isn't too hard to understand this.

Have a look at Man City vs Newcastle.
https://twitter.com/mediocentroEN
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ZeeZoo
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Mert trying to dig himself out of a hole, Scholes liking shit posts, Cule liking posts purely to spite me and, as per, wading in trying to be smart, makes a completely irrelevant post, and doesn't reply back realising he's chatting shit.

And ZZ? Owning, as per.























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Posted Image ChrissyG11
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I know what you're saying, formations can be interpreted completely differently depending on who it is. Valencia is more suited to a wide man in a 442 than Young and Nani, but the latter 2 still perform the same duties; defensively at least. It's a myth that Nani and Young do less defensively because they perform the same role, just to a lesser standard than Toni V. On the ball i think formations for the most part are irrelevant. A Player like Valencia is going to hug the touchline, get down the wing, put crosses in etc. Players like Nani and Young are able to drift inside and pick the ball up in different areas, whereas as Kagawa in possession seems to stay inside anyway after starting outwide initially and join the midfield to give Evra more space to exploit.

It's the same with Dag's interpretation of our formation with regards to Kagawa and Rooney. Kag is a typical #10 that stays inbetween the lines, looking for space to receive the ball; whereas Rooney is a striker that will drop deeper to create a link between the midfield and attack. You won't see him picking up the same positions as Shinji; but you won't see Shinji looking to get in behind like Wayne, or arrive late into the box for headers/cutbacks. Roles are developed to compliment a players strengths hence why Kag is counted moreso as a midfielder and Rooney a striker.
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ZeeZoo
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DaG
Aug 22 2013, 03:09 PM
No difference 'up top' between a 442 with wingers or a 442 (4222) with interiors. You always have one striker in 'depth' and another playing in spaces below. Really isn't too hard to understand this.

Have a look at Man City vs Newcastle.
Oh shit, sorry, we're talking about 4222 and not 4411.

Can I ask you a question, are the "wide men" in a 4222 generally more advanced than in a 442?
Edited by ZeeZoo, Aug 22 2013, 03:16 PM.
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DaG
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ZeeZoo
Aug 22 2013, 03:13 PM
Can I ask you a question, are the wide men in a 4222 generally more advanced than in a 442?
Depends on the types of players you have and what the manager prefers. Oezil and Cazorla are both attacking midfielders, but Oezil would play higher up than Cazorla just because that's his style and where he's more comfortable on the pitch.
https://twitter.com/mediocentroEN
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Scholes
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ZeeZoo
Aug 22 2013, 02:58 PM
Hargreaves played RM for us for quite a long while
Did he? lmao
Scholes
 

Seriously, Frank Lampard is an absolute legend of the game. He needs to be recognised in some way eg. Frank Lampard OBE, Sir Frank Lampard or some kind of lifetime achievement award.

AntMcfc
 
Greatest ownage machine: Scholes. Absolute animal when he was a regular poster, I always knew I was in the right when he was backing me up, and I couldn't wait to read a topic that he was posting in because I knew he'd be tearing someone apart
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AntMcfc
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4222 is a variation of 442 lol. If you asked a layman on the street to watch City vs Newcastle, they'd tell you we played 442. if you asked a proper analyst (me, dag etc) to look and analyse further, taking into account who the manager is, who the players were and how our players actually played, you'd assimilate that it was nearer a 4222 than anything.

There are only slight differences between the two formations; the central midfielders perform different roles, we didn't play with a fixed double pivot, Yaya controlled and created from deep while offering protection for the back four, while Fernandinho was allowed to roam more. The two were flexible of course but this was the general pattern of play. The wide players were used as genuine interiores, even Navas, the archetypal touchline hugger, came into central areas regularly. And lastly, despite using a 2 upfront, of course Aguero and Dzeko didn't remain in fixed, adjacent, forward positions all game, one of the two was always coming deep to collect the ball, as well as running into channels and opening up space in the central areas for the interiores to move into. Aguero has commonly been the man to drop deep but there were plenty of occasions where Dzeko was in a deeper position, acting as a focal point, while Aguero was running in behind him and again, into the channels.

So yes, slight variation, but undoubtedly a 442 on the surface, and a 4222 when analysed further.
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AntMcfc
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DaG
Aug 22 2013, 03:09 PM
No difference 'up top' between a 442 with wingers or a 442 (4222) with interiors. You always have one striker in 'depth' and another playing in spaces below. Really isn't too hard to understand this.

Have a look at Man City vs Newcastle.
Read my mind.
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