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| Dennis Bergkamp; footballing genius | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Jun 18 2009, 07:38 PM (4,886 Views) | |
| AntMcfc | Jun 19 2009, 01:17 AM Post #46 |
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POTY
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Lol I was only kidding about eating my ass, but I didn't win best poster. I put that there as a joke months ago before any kind of vote took place. |
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| Goonie | Jun 19 2009, 01:18 AM Post #47 |
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Visça el Barça!!!!!
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Ah ok, I thought there must have been a mistake
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| GunnerBoy | Jun 19 2009, 01:19 AM Post #48 |
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Prediction & Scorers Double 13/14
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Ant is just a self proclaimed best poster.
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"3-0, easy win. I'll quit the forum if we lose, we're not Arsenal mate we sort our business." Ant on the FA Cup final 15/4/2013
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| AntMcfc | Jun 19 2009, 01:21 AM Post #49 |
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POTY
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That's right GB, I am the spiritual best poster, no matter who wins it you all know I am the best... |
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| rollingstone | Jun 19 2009, 01:38 AM Post #50 |
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Viru
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I think Scholes is trying to create that title for himself Ant by 'not allowing' people to vote for him, suggesting he views it as a formality... |
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| ManYou | Jun 19 2009, 02:19 AM Post #51 |
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Thierry Henry
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It could seem crazy to some, but at the end of he day, it's my opinion and to be fair, when you're talking about the greatest players ever, there's relatively little between them. Henry scored more goals but then he was more of a striker. Henry was more dynamic and that's down to him being so unbelievably fast. He was more of an athlete all round for sure but I don't think that has so much of a bearing. Is one player a better footballer than the other because he was a natural athlete? I don't think that's fair. Is a great goalscoring striker a better player than a genius second striker because he scored goals? I think that would be ridiculous. Judging a player on what physical tools he had and what he done with what he had. What position he played and how well he played it comes into it a lot. Then you have pure ability with a football, control over a football. Both Henry and Bergkamp could score brilliant goals, right in the very corner of the net from 20+ yards, but I think Bergkamp with the ball at his feet was better than Henry, he could do things that Henry couldn't do, he could do things that Ronaldinho couldn't do, he was amazing. I think Heny was a fantastic player, definitely in the top 5 I've seen, in fact he'd be top 3, but in my personal opinion I would go with: 1. Zidane; 2. Bergkamp; 3. Henry. Placing Henry behind Zidane and Bergkamp is not saying anything bad about him but I value longevity in a big way. Bergkamp was pure class in all his days at Arsenal, he was a young genius at Ajax and Inter, fair enough he didn't hit it off comletely in Italy but then Henry didn't either, Dennis did however score some genius goals with the Italians. Henry was a sensation since say his second season at Arsenal so counting full years he was at his super high level doing what he did best from 2001-2006, took a break from being amazing partly due to injury and then was class in 2008/09. In the 90's Henry was not the player he turned out to be, he was a winger and he wasn't like the best winger in the world. At Monaco and then Juventus, he was a good player nothing more. I know you will refer to his WC '98 exploits but let's get real here, Henry was not even close to his outstanding form back then, not even a key player for France. I know this for an absolute fact, I watched that WC and the memories of that World Cup are probably fresher than any other. Bergkamp however was outstanding at what he did from 1995-2005 a full 10 years and before that in his Ajax and Inter days he was better than Henry was at Monaco and Juventus, no doubt about it, at least for any sane person! The class Bergkamp has showed almost every weekend of his career just can't be dismissed, the amount of amazing things he did with the ball, teasing the opposition but making it look so easy, doing things that have you scratching your head in bemusement like v Newcastle or producing moment of sheer class like v Argentina in the quarter-finals of France '98 or that takedown to finish his hattrick against Leicester City all those years ago. No exaggeration but if you made compilation of amazing and classy things done with a football excluding goals (but parts of goals) Bergkamp's would be longer than Henry's AND Zidane's. He dazzled the fans for so long and didn't seem to age. Henry has lost some of his 'Va Va Voom' since he lost that yard of pace, he' not quite what he was. Bergkamp never really used what pace he had anyways, he played the game to his tune and was as fast in 2004 as he was in 1993. I adore players like Dennis Bergkamp, I think Henry was world class but I'm more of a Bergkamp man myself. The only thing that bothers me is why he doesn't get the respect he deserves, maybe it was because he was a quiet man and wasn't interested in being a star, just an incredible football player. In the time I've been watching football he is no lower than the 2nd best footballer I've seen and he done it like that for at least 10 years! It's outstanding, why he isn't one of the first names on people's lips when mentioning best players ever is beyond me, it truly is. I'd better stop typing now but believe me I could go on for chapters about how good Bergkamp was and how he has entertained me during his career. |
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| Goonie | Jun 19 2009, 02:27 AM Post #52 |
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Visça el Barça!!!!!
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Great post, I agree with most of it other than probably the main part of him being better than Henry. It was very close though. They are my two favourite players ever.
Edited by Goonie, Jun 19 2009, 02:27 AM.
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| ManYou | Jun 19 2009, 02:46 AM Post #53 |
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Thierry Henry
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It is close, I know Henry is going to be most people's cup of tea but players like Bergkamp are not exactly inferior to anyone. I think he hasn't got enough big moments to satisfy people, no World Cup final goals, no CL final goals. But really what does that matter. I'm sure if he had played in one, he would've done something that stuck in your memory forever. He did great shit in every game. Things like that are just lucky in a way. (please don't take offence Zidane lovers!) I mean Zidane scored two headers that won the WC for France, we see goals like those every week. If he had played Leverkusen again in a CL final he might not have scored, the chances are he wouldn't have got that pass from Roberto Carlos to smash that great volley in, I think that goal gets blown up a little because of the game it was in, don't get me wrong it was a cracking goal but Dennis Bergkamp has scored better, Henry has scored better, I'm sure Zidane would tell you himself about a better goal he scored. I don't think a couple of goals in huge games should define how a player is seen over the course of his career. Bergkamp might not have those goals but he was a fantastic player week in, week out for at least a decade, the people who watched him won't forget that. Maradona is also seen as the best by many but really, he failed at Barcelona, only replicated his Argentina form for Napoli who played 1 failed season in the European Cup, so effectively he never played at the highest level in European football, but he scored an iconic goal in WC. Had Argentina NOT won that World Cup, the stature he has would be a little lower, had he not scored that 1 single goal, it would be lower again and he'd be just another great player who never played at the highest level. How can he be the greatest if he didn't do that is what everyone would say. I'm not trying to belittle Maradona and what he did but this is the harsh reality of what would've been if he had not scored THAT goal. People will remember these big goals in the big games but there's more to judging a player than just a couple of goals. |
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| Goonie | Jun 19 2009, 02:58 AM Post #54 |
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Visça el Barça!!!!!
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I agree when in a debate like this it is the big moments that will be said becuase they are the moments you remember. I think saying about the goals is great but looking at Henry he got so many assists as well. Holds the league record for most in one season I think. Looking past the stats to overall play e.g. linking up play, stretching team is where it becomes SOO difficult becuase they both win their fair sahre. You see Bergkamp make passes no one else would make, becuase they couldn't make them? No they just wouldn't see them, he really was a genius. I remember the little bit of play aggainst Juventus where he is actually dancing around the defenders with the ball before playing a great ball for Freddie. I think when it comes to down to Vision/Brain it comes down to Zidane/Bergkamp imo. Henry as a foward had it all except heading ability, add this to the fact I meantioned earlier that he also provided alot of goals would put him just ahead imo. Saying this though Henry is also a very clever footballer on the pitch but in comparison to Bergkamp not so much, still is another positive of his though.
Edited by Goonie, Jun 19 2009, 03:01 AM.
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| Cull58 | Jun 19 2009, 04:39 AM Post #55 |
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Paul McGrath
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Best was better than maradona IMO. Maradona will tell you that himself as he considers him the best. Speaking of maradona, where the sheep is Diego? |
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| DaG | Jun 19 2009, 05:33 AM Post #56 |
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Top Button Wanker
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Uhh, WTF kind of point is that? I could just as well say Scholes is a brilliant passer because he has feet attached to his legs.
Errr, of course it has fucking bearing. Physical tools are very, very important in football.
1. Could Bergkamp receieve the ball, leave multiple defenders on their ass, and out pace everyone on the pitch? No. 2. Of course, Bergy could do things Henry couldn't, but Henry could do things Bergy couldn't either, as highlighted above. Fact is, Henry offered a lot more.
Henry was sensational in his first season, scoring 27 goals in all comps. Brilliant return.
So what? Henry offered more in his prime years than Bergkamp did, and remember, Titi had an amazing season at Barca this season, and he has a couple more top seasons left in him. More if he moves to Italy or another team and plays as a #10, something Wenger said he saw Titi doing late in his career. At the end of the day ManYou, this post does not in anyway prove Henry was not better than Bergkamp. All it does is share with all of us that you preferred Bergkamp as a player, which is fine, but claiming he was better than Henry is a travesty that shouldn't be allowed IMO. The FACT is, both players were forwards, and Henry's assist+goal scoring records shit and piss all over Bergkamp's. I love Dennis as much as the next guy, but Thierry Daniel Henry is a player we will never see again. Unmatched. Not ONE weakness in his game according to Bergkamp, who also labeled him the best player he ever saw. Edited by DaG, Jun 19 2009, 05:39 AM.
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https://twitter.com/mediocentroEN | |
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| Goonie | Jun 19 2009, 05:43 AM Post #57 |
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Visça el Barça!!!!!
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Wright, Henry and Anelka have said Bergkamp is the best player you could ask for to play up front with. Henry said Bergkamp was the best player he has ever played with, this coming from a guy who played with Zidane. So you can say all you want about him being better and I agree but you are making it out as if its not a contest when really it is! |
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| DaG | Jun 19 2009, 06:03 AM Post #58 |
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Top Button Wanker
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It isn't a contest, Henry is that much better than Bergkamp. Also, Henry said he is the best player he has played with as far as STRIKERS go. He always adds that part when he talks about Bergy. |
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https://twitter.com/mediocentroEN | |
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| Cull58 | Jun 19 2009, 06:04 AM Post #59 |
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Paul McGrath
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Henry is clearly the better player. |
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| ManYou | Jun 19 2009, 07:12 AM Post #60 |
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Thierry Henry
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Okay fair enough DaGunners, I take your points. Btw the first quote I should have added more to that really. He also had the brain, since it is possible for a player to be fast and not dynamic, Henry had the abiltiy, touch and technique that made his pace so dynamic. Va va voom, no other player quite had it.Also that comment about Bergkamp not being able to receive the ball, leave multiple defenders on their asses and outpace everyone on the pitch. Well Bergkamp could and did do all of that many a time, except for the outpace part which, in a way, is more impressive. Henry was so quick that players would just commit to a challenge and then he'd be gone in a different direction but Bergkamp was just so quick with his feet, so fluent in his movement that he often made a fool of 2, 3 or 4 defenders who were breathing down his neck. |
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Great post, I agree with most of it other than probably the main part of him being better than Henry. It was very close though. They are my two favourite players ever. 

I should have added more to that really. He also had the brain, since it is possible for a player to be fast and not dynamic, Henry had the abiltiy, touch and technique that made his pace so dynamic. Va va voom, no other player quite had it.
6:44 PM Jul 11