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Great Article From One of My People's
Topic Started: May 4 2009, 12:38 AM (469 Views)
Cull58
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Paul McGrath
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rollingstone
May 4 2009, 11:56 AM
elcule
May 4 2009, 11:07 AM
Wow, angry people. I hope you sell / don't buy them both in the summer so you can stop debating this every week.

I don't think one has much more effect than the other: Berbatov was certainly effective at the start of the season, but seems to have hit a slight rut - whilst maintaining his wonderful ball retention skills and creative ability; Tevez on the other hand is just so much more likeable, works far harder and puts huge amounts of pressure on the oppostion - forcing mistakes, but his goal scoring record is poor and there's no getting away from that.

It's like when Barca had Ronaldinho last season, he was shit - total shit, but i still wanted him playing every week because I loved him; i would have much rather seen him play than Messi despite the latter being undeniably more effective.

So my point is, in footballing terms, you'd take Berbatov, but in terms of what team you'd like to take the field - you'd take Tevez as neither really make that much difference to whether United will win or not.
Thing is mate, about a month or so ago I'd have agreed with you. But I'm starting to realise that there is more to Tevez's game than everyone suggests. His movement off the ball is outstanding: he always shows for a pass or drops off into space to find one. (Admittedly his touch isn't great, but it's not terrible either and the majority of the time he can control the ball). Last season, he scored more goals than Rooney and was a consistent goal scorer rather than chipping in for one month in every 3 or so. This season, I've noticed him getting into all the right positions regularly, but the goal scoring form has been, quite frankly, terrible.

What's missing then? Well, I think there is a tendency to underestimate the effects of continuity in the team. While Tevez has played a lot of games this season, he hasn't managed a 5-10 game streak in the starting 11 all season, and I think this is normally what players need. Ronaldo, for instance, wasn't great as soon as he came back from injury at the start of the season, but recaptured his deadly form in front of goal after a steady run in the team. Also, I think confidence is a major factor. When I saw him at Wembley, I could tell that he was just trying so hard to do the right thing; he would make all the right runs and get into the correct positions, but instead of leathering one into the top corner he would pass.

With a host of regular first team appearances, I think the man could do just as good a job as Berba, if not better.
:thumbsup: great post
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Scholes
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Nothing's as it seems
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Elcule
 
Berbatov was certainly effective at the start of the season


He was our best player in the run of 11 straight wins... (Dec-Feb).

RS
 
Ronaldo, for instance, wasn't great as soon as he came back from injury at the start of the season, but recaptured his deadly form in front of goal after a steady run in the team


He racked up 10 goals in no time...it's since then his form has dropped.

RS
 
Also, I think confidence is a major factor. When I saw him at Wembley, I could tell that he was just trying so hard to do the right thing; he would make all the right runs and get into the correct positions, but instead of leathering one into the top corner he would pass.


?

RS
 
His movement off the ball is outstanding: he always shows for a pass or drops off into space to find one. (Admittedly his touch isn't great, but it's not terrible either and the majority of the time he can control the ball).


Berbatov is much much better at this.

Quote:
 
Last season, he scored more goals than Rooney


One more goal, but neither were great last season.

RS's post really wasn't a great one as Ant and Cull, two people that haven't watched United closely, suggest :lol: Ant thinks he's Rooney with class :hysterics:

ManYou summed out what a joke MU2DT and the writer of the article is nicely.
Scholes
 

Seriously, Frank Lampard is an absolute legend of the game. He needs to be recognised in some way eg. Frank Lampard OBE, Sir Frank Lampard or some kind of lifetime achievement award.

AntMcfc
 
Greatest ownage machine: Scholes. Absolute animal when he was a regular poster, I always knew I was in the right when he was backing me up, and I couldn't wait to read a topic that he was posting in because I knew he'd be tearing someone apart
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elcule
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Kolo
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rollingstone
May 4 2009, 11:56 AM
Thing is mate, about a month or so ago I'd have agreed with you. But I'm starting to realise that there is more to Tevez's game than everyone suggests. His movement off the ball is outstanding: he always shows for a pass or drops off into space to find one. (Admittedly his touch isn't great, but it's not terrible either and the majority of the time he can control the ball). Last season, he scored more goals than Rooney and was a consistent goal scorer rather than chipping in for one month in every 3 or so. This season, I've noticed him getting into all the right positions regularly, but the goal scoring form has been, quite frankly, terrible.

What's missing then? Well, I think there is a tendency to underestimate the effects of continuity in the team. While Tevez has played a lot of games this season, he hasn't managed a 5-10 game streak in the starting 11 all season, and I think this is normally what players need. Ronaldo, for instance, wasn't great as soon as he came back from injury at the start of the season, but recaptured his deadly form in front of goal after a steady run in the team. Also, I think confidence is a major factor. When I saw him at Wembley, I could tell that he was just trying so hard to do the right thing; he would make all the right runs and get into the correct positions, but instead of leathering one into the top corner he would pass.

With a host of regular first team appearances, I think the man could do just as good a job as Berba, if not better. And I think his performances last year show this.
That's all well and good mate, and I'm inclined to agree with you - especially about his off the ball movement which, like i mentioned on wednesday, was magnificent - but it's all very idealised. I highly doubt that Tevez is consistently going to get enough games at United in order to prove his worth which makes it rather immaterial whether he would be good enough when given a run in the side.

When you're fighting on so many fronts that side has to be adaptable, with players coming in to do a specific job in each game; now if you cannot come in and perform when asked then you are of limited use to the manager. Rooney and Ronaldo will always start in important games, leaving space for only one of Berbatov or Tevez (or in some cases neither) to fill the remaining place. Fergie's decision will be based the impact that those players can have when coming in, and imo, Berbatov's impact and ability to settle into a game quickly after a spell out, is greater than Tevez'.

You said it yourself, confidence is a vital factor in Tevez' game; this could be noted at West Ham after his explosion into form after his first goal for the club and also for Argentina - where he has been a far better player this season than he has been at club level. In such a competitive league, Fergie cannot allow for playing Tevez just to get his confidence up.

Sure, if Tevez got a consistent run he may be very useful, but barring injury to Rooney or the sale of Berbatov, he won't. Until that point therefore, i would fear for Tevez' future at the club.
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rollingstone
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Yh I agree with that. My argument was a conditional one though: if Tevez got enough games, his contribution would be equal to or greater than Berbatov's for all the above reasons. I know it's immaterial because I don't think Fergie will give him that chance, but I'm lamenting that in a way as I think this could be a missed opportunity.
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rollingstone
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$chole$
May 4 2009, 01:11 PM
RS
 
Ronaldo, for instance, wasn't great as soon as he came back from injury at the start of the season, but recaptured his deadly form in front of goal after a steady run in the team


He racked up 10 goals in no time...it's since then his form has dropped.

RS
 
His movement off the ball is outstanding: he always shows for a pass or drops off into space to find one. (Admittedly his touch isn't great, but it's not terrible either and the majority of the time he can control the ball).


Berbatov is much much better at this.
The Ronaldo example, while misused by myself, is immaterial. The point remains that players generally benefit from a run of games.

Tevez's movement is far more dynamic, which in turn enables us to play a much faster brand of football which gives opponents less time to regroup. This was evident against Arsenal on Wednesday, as well as the majority of last season. Berbatov adds a different quality to the game, allowing us to build attacks as he drops deep to set up the play. Both are useful and have their respective advantages depending on the opposition. I would argue though, that Tevez's style of play is just that bit more advantageous, a point that can be evidenced by the way that we racked up more goals last season than we have done this season. Obviously there are other factors in this, but I think Tevez's inclusion was an important one.
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Scholes
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You talk as if Tevez hasn't played this season. He's played loads, and we have not looked more of a goal-threat and have not scored more goals with his presence. The reason we haven't scored as many goals is because we are in second/third season syndrome, and because lesser opposition managed to thwart and stifle every top 4 team this season.

We were a much better attacking force in 06/07 than we were last year. It's amazing what 42 goal Ronaldo has managed to mask.
Scholes
 

Seriously, Frank Lampard is an absolute legend of the game. He needs to be recognised in some way eg. Frank Lampard OBE, Sir Frank Lampard or some kind of lifetime achievement award.

AntMcfc
 
Greatest ownage machine: Scholes. Absolute animal when he was a regular poster, I always knew I was in the right when he was backing me up, and I couldn't wait to read a topic that he was posting in because I knew he'd be tearing someone apart
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rollingstone
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$chole$
May 4 2009, 01:45 PM
You talk as if Tevez hasn't played this season. He's played loads, and we have not looked more of a goal-threat and have not scored more goals with his presence. The reason we haven't scored as many goals is because we are in second/third season syndrome, and because lesser opposition managed to thwart and stifle every top 4 team this season.

We were a much better attacking force in 06/07 than we were last year. It's amazing what 42 goal Ronaldo has managed to mask.
No I don't, not at all. I'm fully aware that he has played, my point is that he hasn't had a streak in the starting 11. Also, against Arsenal, we looked bloody dangerous going forward.

I often pioneer the Ronaldo argument too, but I think the asttacking unit last year was built in a way that was especially conducive for Ronaldo - in a way that it isn't this year - and I think this may have much to do with Tevez's inclusion. The unit was far more dynamic; all three of our attackers would regularly appear in each other's positions, and often this would mean Ronaldo playing down the centre while the other 2 dropped off and fed him the play. This hasn't happened as much this year. Ronaldo has played much more like a conventional winger.
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Scholes
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If you go and watch Ronaldo's 42 goals on YouTube you will see that few of them were resultant of the attacking trio interchanging and such. The fact is, Ronaldo has lost his golden touch. He's had plenty of chances this season but his confidence amongst other things have seen a poorer goal return.
Scholes
 

Seriously, Frank Lampard is an absolute legend of the game. He needs to be recognised in some way eg. Frank Lampard OBE, Sir Frank Lampard or some kind of lifetime achievement award.

AntMcfc
 
Greatest ownage machine: Scholes. Absolute animal when he was a regular poster, I always knew I was in the right when he was backing me up, and I couldn't wait to read a topic that he was posting in because I knew he'd be tearing someone apart
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rollingstone
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$chole$
May 4 2009, 01:57 PM
If you go and watch Ronaldo's 42 goals on YouTube you will see that few of them were resultant of the attacking trio interchanging and such. The fact is, Ronaldo has lost his golden touch. He's had plenty of chances this season but his confidence amongst other things have seen a poorer goal return.
I'm not going to agree with you on this. Ronaldo's drop in goalscoring form has mainly been to do with the position he's playing. Last year, I would take delight in pissing elcule off by saying that Ronaldo had scored 42 in a season from the wing (I had a song), but I was fully aware that he wasn't playing as a winger most of the time. This season, my song would be the same, but the number would be different and the comment would be true.
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diego
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$chole$
May 4 2009, 12:52 AM
Homer
May 4 2009, 12:49 AM
he has been ruined this season and its all because of Berbatov.
Dimi cannot help being the better player.
your loyalty to berbatov is boring mate, he's simply not united quality, our style just doesnt suit his style, he's a passenger for most time, and your dislike of tevez and slating of the man is becoming a vendetta, it was his inclusion vs spurs which turned the game, he unsettled their defenders and generally caused havoc leading to them collapsing, you keep bringing up this thing about his touch and awareness, but berbatovs touch isnt what you make it out to be either, and certainly his awareness isnt great, in my view theres a place for both, as there are games which would require a player to hold the ball(berbatov) and other like the spurs game which need a player to constantly close them down(tevez), so instead of this shit of comparing the two, GET BEHIND THE BLOODY TEAM
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elcule
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diego
May 4 2009, 02:09 PM
in my view theres a place for both, as there are games which would require a player to hold the ball(berbatov) and other like the spurs game which need a player to constantly close them down(tevez), so instead of this shit of comparing the two, GET BEHIND THE BLOODY TEAM
Fully agree with that part.
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"If I go to Anfield and someone puts the ball into the box and Carragher hammers it out of play the fans applaud. At Camp Nou you would never be applauded for that." - Xavi
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Cull58
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I think berbatov should go play in italy. And he certainly doesnt fit in the united team/ style of play.
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rollingstone
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Cull58
May 4 2009, 02:15 PM
I think berbatov should go play in italy. And he certainly doesnt fit in the united team/ style of play.
Yes he does. It's just different to Tevez's. As a top class team, you need variety. I just think Tevez's style of play is more effective. But there is clearly a place for both.
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Scholes
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diego
May 4 2009, 02:09 PM
GET BEHIND THE BLOODY TEAM
I always do. I'm not the one constantly bringing the discussion up by searching for awful articles on the net. MU2DT is the guy never satisfied and if he had his way he'd probably celebrate Berbatov scoring an own goal on Tuesday, no joke :hysterics:

Scholes
 

Seriously, Frank Lampard is an absolute legend of the game. He needs to be recognised in some way eg. Frank Lampard OBE, Sir Frank Lampard or some kind of lifetime achievement award.

AntMcfc
 
Greatest ownage machine: Scholes. Absolute animal when he was a regular poster, I always knew I was in the right when he was backing me up, and I couldn't wait to read a topic that he was posting in because I knew he'd be tearing someone apart
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Cull58
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Yeah but IMO united are at their best when they are playing with that explosive attacking speed etc and it all just slows down an goes flat when hes there.
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